macmax77
Nov 29, 05:29 PM
Perhaps Microsoft should have a "switch" campaign like Apple for the Zune. Showing all the wonderful things like radio and squirting music and photos.
Wonderful equals bad taste?
Wonderful equals bad taste?
lordonuthin
Jan 26, 09:55 PM
Originally Posted by SciFrog
Our PPD has dropped 20% from the peak, I lost a big unit this week due to a reboot, same old annoying problem...
Can't wait for Gulftown and GPU3...
I've lost 2 big units lately for the same reason, power loss & reboots and another one wasn't picked up in stats :confused:
yeah i've noticed the team has been down. again, i believe the less we chat on this forum, the less members will fold. right now, if one of our top users goes down, our whole team does basically.
i think we need to be more involved on here, and more people will fold.
sorry to hear you lost a big unit. yeah gulftown and gpu3 will be great!
It's hard to stay interested but it really doesn't take any effort to keep going. Maybe too many discover performance issues after they start and only have their main machine to fold with? Maybe as people get newer machines with multiple cores there will be fewer dropouts due to perfomance problems... which reminds me of one of my pet peeves - everyone talks about how not very many applications can take advantage of multi core machines - multiple aplications CAN take advantage of multiple cores... and thus performance is vastly improved when running many apps. my two cents - get as many cores as you can! :D
Our PPD has dropped 20% from the peak, I lost a big unit this week due to a reboot, same old annoying problem...
Can't wait for Gulftown and GPU3...
I've lost 2 big units lately for the same reason, power loss & reboots and another one wasn't picked up in stats :confused:
yeah i've noticed the team has been down. again, i believe the less we chat on this forum, the less members will fold. right now, if one of our top users goes down, our whole team does basically.
i think we need to be more involved on here, and more people will fold.
sorry to hear you lost a big unit. yeah gulftown and gpu3 will be great!
It's hard to stay interested but it really doesn't take any effort to keep going. Maybe too many discover performance issues after they start and only have their main machine to fold with? Maybe as people get newer machines with multiple cores there will be fewer dropouts due to perfomance problems... which reminds me of one of my pet peeves - everyone talks about how not very many applications can take advantage of multi core machines - multiple aplications CAN take advantage of multiple cores... and thus performance is vastly improved when running many apps. my two cents - get as many cores as you can! :D
AidenShaw
Nov 29, 08:37 PM
Living room, car, blah blah blah.
Nobody has yet delivered a truly GOOD streaming media solution for my hot air balloon. Are you listening Apple???!!!!! :mad:
M. Jobs can be an expert at emitting hot air... ;)
Nobody has yet delivered a truly GOOD streaming media solution for my hot air balloon. Are you listening Apple???!!!!! :mad:
M. Jobs can be an expert at emitting hot air... ;)
whooleytoo
Jul 20, 05:47 AM
And since just about all OEM's wil preload Vista on their machines, the sales-numbers will be HUGE.
I think this is the key - once Vista comes out what OEM will be able to continue selling PCs with XP installed? Even if Vista's hardware requirements were a Core 2 Duo with 2GB RAM, they'd build every PC with a minimum of a Core 2 Duo with 2GB RAM, because they can't afford not to be on the Vista bandwagon.
I think this is the key - once Vista comes out what OEM will be able to continue selling PCs with XP installed? Even if Vista's hardware requirements were a Core 2 Duo with 2GB RAM, they'd build every PC with a minimum of a Core 2 Duo with 2GB RAM, because they can't afford not to be on the Vista bandwagon.
QuarterSwede
Apr 10, 04:52 PM
Have to say, whenever these threads crop up, I'm alway left with the opinion that in the U.S., being able to depress a clutch and move a stick at the same time is seen as some kind of divine talent... :p :p :p
That's because in the US most of us drive on two types of roads, crowded ones and dead straight ones. Automatics are superior on crowded ones and it doesn't matter on straight ones.
That's because in the US most of us drive on two types of roads, crowded ones and dead straight ones. Automatics are superior on crowded ones and it doesn't matter on straight ones.
zeroh3ro
Feb 28, 12:27 AM
Finishing my graphic design degree this May. The large intuos might get replaced by a cintiq very soon.
What bag is that your using?
What bag is that your using?
Osarkon
Jan 9, 06:54 AM
*offtopic* where are you watching that at?
That would be BBC iPlayer. Wouldn't have thought that episode is still on it now though.
That would be BBC iPlayer. Wouldn't have thought that episode is still on it now though.
dguisinger
Aug 7, 07:55 AM
You ordered a Macbook pro on the eve of WWDC. ARe you mad?
Don't taunt him too much, he might kill you once he finds out they are now 64-bit and higher speed!
Don't taunt him too much, he might kill you once he finds out they are now 64-bit and higher speed!
QuantumLo0p
Mar 7, 12:41 PM
As with most things :D I do have an opinion on that. I am very interested in diesel, but I am in the minority as far as that is concerned. When I mention the benefits of diesel to my friends, most of them say something like "Really, you're kidding, if they are superior in areas such as mileage then why doesn't the car companies make and sell them?" I believe the answer is because of the ridiculous emissions standards placed on the manufacturers by agencies such as the EPA. I believe that our government knows the benefits of diesel technology, but that too many powerful people are bought and paid for by giant corporations. You can call me a tin-hat wearing conspiracy theorist is you want to, but I really do think that is why many good things are being suppressed here.
I agree. Case in point; I believe one of the Aptera prototypes was rear drive and used batteries in conjunction with a diesel generator. At full charge the car would run off batteries and as they depleted the generator would contribute more and more electricity. Aptera's fuel efficiency figures were impressive, leaving EVER?THING currently offered in the dust. Sorry I can't quote data but if you look at archived site pages you can probably still find it; I did while back.
As fate would have it the diesel generator Aptera prototype has yet to make it into production and now they seem to offer only a total-loss battery car. I don't recall the range being very impressive which relegates it as an urban novelty and not in contention for serious real-world commuting.
:(
I agree. Case in point; I believe one of the Aptera prototypes was rear drive and used batteries in conjunction with a diesel generator. At full charge the car would run off batteries and as they depleted the generator would contribute more and more electricity. Aptera's fuel efficiency figures were impressive, leaving EVER?THING currently offered in the dust. Sorry I can't quote data but if you look at archived site pages you can probably still find it; I did while back.
As fate would have it the diesel generator Aptera prototype has yet to make it into production and now they seem to offer only a total-loss battery car. I don't recall the range being very impressive which relegates it as an urban novelty and not in contention for serious real-world commuting.
:(
iGav
Feb 25, 07:51 AM
looking at the very current and very genius Fiat Twin Air engines i have to say that very refined turbocharged small displacement/ few cylinder engines are actually the next step over the overly complicated hybrid systems
The Twin Air is conceptually brilliant... but its real world numbers haven't anywhere near matched up to Fiat's official figures (68.9mpg official - 35.7mpg real world, neither of which are particularly brilliant to begin with) and there lies one of the problems with small capacity engines, in anything other than ideal test conditions (i.e. rolling road), it is extraordinarily difficult to even approach the officials figures in everyday conditions, because put simply, they have to be razzed.
Like what you've said though, there's a compelling argument to be made that a diesel-electric hybrid (like VW's XL1 Concept), with energy recovery would probably be the best arrangement (particularly for an urban car), in this instance the diesel engine is isolated from the actually drivetrain (reducing NVH etc) and the electric motors counter the age old argument of petrol>diesel refinement.
I do think that smaller capacity, fewer cylinder engines are the way to go, but only if the absolutely most important factor is addressed first, and that is one of weight, until then...
The Twin Air is conceptually brilliant... but its real world numbers haven't anywhere near matched up to Fiat's official figures (68.9mpg official - 35.7mpg real world, neither of which are particularly brilliant to begin with) and there lies one of the problems with small capacity engines, in anything other than ideal test conditions (i.e. rolling road), it is extraordinarily difficult to even approach the officials figures in everyday conditions, because put simply, they have to be razzed.
Like what you've said though, there's a compelling argument to be made that a diesel-electric hybrid (like VW's XL1 Concept), with energy recovery would probably be the best arrangement (particularly for an urban car), in this instance the diesel engine is isolated from the actually drivetrain (reducing NVH etc) and the electric motors counter the age old argument of petrol>diesel refinement.
I do think that smaller capacity, fewer cylinder engines are the way to go, but only if the absolutely most important factor is addressed first, and that is one of weight, until then...
sth
Oct 23, 08:13 AM
If it can't support 4gigs of ram, it ain't worth the wait for me.:mad:
I've read that even the current MBP supports 4gigs.
Apple just doesn't offer it in their store since the CPU can only address around 3,2gigs (like every other 32bit cpu).
I've read that even the current MBP supports 4gigs.
Apple just doesn't offer it in their store since the CPU can only address around 3,2gigs (like every other 32bit cpu).
SeaFox
Dec 28, 01:52 AM
anything is possible minus 1 thing: the option to dock and iPod simply is so out of place that I do not know why it keeps getting brought up. iTV is focused on streaming content from your computer, not your iPod.
I think an iPod dock is a great idea. It would be nice to be able to use your iTV for something without a computer running. Hey, take your iPod to a friend's house and you can all watch a movie at their house from your collection, just like taking your entire video library with you.
There are two problems with this:
1) HD content takes up a huge amount of space. So if Apple did offer HD movies, the copy iTunes will transfer to your iPod would be reduced quality.
2) iTunes purchases would not be playable on the component outputs on the iTV. The movie studios would require you use an HDMI connection or something else that supported HDCP to ensure you didn't copy the movie out of the iTunes ecosphere.
As several of us have discussed before, my hope is that iTV will be able to stream all forms of content on my computer, but with particular emphasis on digital media. So if I want to bring a word doc up and type or a movie I am working on in final cut pro, I can do so. Similarly, and with more fully developed components all my digital media can be run on my tv. The goal is to make this experience integrate all the entertainment features we love, but throughout our homes. Quality preservation is essential and I think they will work to ensure that takes place.
The issue here is you're asking your iTV to open other files, in other words, you're asking it to be a regular computer. That isn't going to work because it makes the OS/interface more complicated. A home entertainment component needs to be simple and fast. This is where Apple's embedded OSX rumors would be coming in. Everyone read that and thought about the Apple Phone because that was the hot topic of the week and the was the notion of a PDA Apple phone. But an embedded real-time operating system is just what the iTV needs.
People need to stop comparing the iTV to a Mac Mini, they should thinking of it the same way you think of an XBox compared to a Windows PC. Yeah, they're both made by Microsoft, but the XBox doesn't run Windows, it runs a smaller GUI on top of what is mostly a DirectX back end.
What's funny is the reason people keep thinking of the Mini is because what consumers really want is an Apple DVR, a Mac Mini with a little stronger hardware, no external power supply, and a built in tuner. Add PVR functionality to Front Row and maybe a little bit more expansive remote and you'd have that. But since the Mini isn't expandable, it isn't even possible for a consumer to cobble together the solution themselves from a PCI tuner card and DVR software available, the closest they can do has lots of "extra parts" lying around from the ElGato external tuner, a monitor adapter to give them the connection they need, and the Mini's power supply, and it still would not be as easy to navigate since a keyboard would probably be needed at some point.
So a MacMini wont download and play a HD movie or display a word doc, and you need the iTV to accomplish this basic task?
No, it will do those things, but a MacMini costs $600. Not everyone wants to keep their main computer hooked up to the TV. The iTV allows them to watch their iTunes Store-purchased movies on a larger screen than their regular monitor without moving their computer.
Also, most people don’t need final cut pro or photo shop. So, that’s why I was thinking this could be a basic computer. If not you will need the mac mini to go with it, and why not simply include the iTV with the Mac Mini so you don’t have two devises in a limited shelf space.
The iTV is meant to be an add-on to an existing Macintosh household. Not a self-contained entertainment product like a CableCo box or a PS2.
The idea is the iTV would support more common TV connection methods out of the box, be designed to fit in better aesthetically with home entertainment components, offer better video performance, overall stability, and lower power usage than a MacMini for less.
Is the problem the iTV will address processing the images or scaling them?
I hope so. Maybe it will be upconverting for watching current iTunes movies on an HDTV?
I think an iPod dock is a great idea. It would be nice to be able to use your iTV for something without a computer running. Hey, take your iPod to a friend's house and you can all watch a movie at their house from your collection, just like taking your entire video library with you.
There are two problems with this:
1) HD content takes up a huge amount of space. So if Apple did offer HD movies, the copy iTunes will transfer to your iPod would be reduced quality.
2) iTunes purchases would not be playable on the component outputs on the iTV. The movie studios would require you use an HDMI connection or something else that supported HDCP to ensure you didn't copy the movie out of the iTunes ecosphere.
As several of us have discussed before, my hope is that iTV will be able to stream all forms of content on my computer, but with particular emphasis on digital media. So if I want to bring a word doc up and type or a movie I am working on in final cut pro, I can do so. Similarly, and with more fully developed components all my digital media can be run on my tv. The goal is to make this experience integrate all the entertainment features we love, but throughout our homes. Quality preservation is essential and I think they will work to ensure that takes place.
The issue here is you're asking your iTV to open other files, in other words, you're asking it to be a regular computer. That isn't going to work because it makes the OS/interface more complicated. A home entertainment component needs to be simple and fast. This is where Apple's embedded OSX rumors would be coming in. Everyone read that and thought about the Apple Phone because that was the hot topic of the week and the was the notion of a PDA Apple phone. But an embedded real-time operating system is just what the iTV needs.
People need to stop comparing the iTV to a Mac Mini, they should thinking of it the same way you think of an XBox compared to a Windows PC. Yeah, they're both made by Microsoft, but the XBox doesn't run Windows, it runs a smaller GUI on top of what is mostly a DirectX back end.
What's funny is the reason people keep thinking of the Mini is because what consumers really want is an Apple DVR, a Mac Mini with a little stronger hardware, no external power supply, and a built in tuner. Add PVR functionality to Front Row and maybe a little bit more expansive remote and you'd have that. But since the Mini isn't expandable, it isn't even possible for a consumer to cobble together the solution themselves from a PCI tuner card and DVR software available, the closest they can do has lots of "extra parts" lying around from the ElGato external tuner, a monitor adapter to give them the connection they need, and the Mini's power supply, and it still would not be as easy to navigate since a keyboard would probably be needed at some point.
So a MacMini wont download and play a HD movie or display a word doc, and you need the iTV to accomplish this basic task?
No, it will do those things, but a MacMini costs $600. Not everyone wants to keep their main computer hooked up to the TV. The iTV allows them to watch their iTunes Store-purchased movies on a larger screen than their regular monitor without moving their computer.
Also, most people don’t need final cut pro or photo shop. So, that’s why I was thinking this could be a basic computer. If not you will need the mac mini to go with it, and why not simply include the iTV with the Mac Mini so you don’t have two devises in a limited shelf space.
The iTV is meant to be an add-on to an existing Macintosh household. Not a self-contained entertainment product like a CableCo box or a PS2.
The idea is the iTV would support more common TV connection methods out of the box, be designed to fit in better aesthetically with home entertainment components, offer better video performance, overall stability, and lower power usage than a MacMini for less.
Is the problem the iTV will address processing the images or scaling them?
I hope so. Maybe it will be upconverting for watching current iTunes movies on an HDTV?
RayLancer
Oct 2, 10:36 AM
Actually I kind of like my gel case. It perfectly fits and makes the back look great. I intended to wait for the belkin's clear hard case to come out, but now I'm going to order the full set of this gel case and it's still cheaper.
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt114/longasau/IMG_0357.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt114/longasau/IMG_0358.jpg
Where did you get yours from? I ordered one off ebay and it was horribly warped, both of them. It was pretty loose and stretched so it wouldn't fit my iPod at all.
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt114/longasau/IMG_0357.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt114/longasau/IMG_0358.jpg
Where did you get yours from? I ordered one off ebay and it was horribly warped, both of them. It was pretty loose and stretched so it wouldn't fit my iPod at all.
Machead III
Sep 7, 04:58 AM
"Sin City was 40 million, Renaissance 14 million �, A Scanner Darkly 8.5 millions"
These were cheaper because they relied on digital effects to make a visual impression, rather than a couple hundred tons of actual explosives blowing up a genuine Boieng 747 as you might have in a Hollywood blockbuster.
Good to see you mentioned 2046. Great movie ^^ Wong Kar-Wai is awesome.
These were cheaper because they relied on digital effects to make a visual impression, rather than a couple hundred tons of actual explosives blowing up a genuine Boieng 747 as you might have in a Hollywood blockbuster.
Good to see you mentioned 2046. Great movie ^^ Wong Kar-Wai is awesome.
MistaBungle
Mar 30, 09:11 PM
Full screens apps now have a transition-drop down menubar rather than one that covers up the top of the application now.
chillywilly
Jan 2, 10:18 PM
Guaranteed, or almost guaranteed:
iWork 07
iLife 07
iTV
Very likely:
A new feature or two in Leopard, possibly with a release month
A new Jam Pack or 2
More iPod games
Likely:
Speed bump to one or more Mac lines
Demo of Photoshop CS 3
Update to some pro software app (but not all)
I agree with the above. Although what can they add to iLife 07 that needs to be added? Guess we'll find out in less than a week.
iWork 07
iLife 07
iTV
Very likely:
A new feature or two in Leopard, possibly with a release month
A new Jam Pack or 2
More iPod games
Likely:
Speed bump to one or more Mac lines
Demo of Photoshop CS 3
Update to some pro software app (but not all)
I agree with the above. Although what can they add to iLife 07 that needs to be added? Guess we'll find out in less than a week.
ArtOfWarfare
Apr 12, 09:47 PM
Uh...so just being black and green means 'consumer' now? :confused:
No, but having features like face detection does suggest that it's a 'consumer' orientated product.
Personally, I don't mind. As long as all the old multitrack features are still available (and the price significantly drops, to say, $50-$300,) then I intend to buy it.
No, but having features like face detection does suggest that it's a 'consumer' orientated product.
Personally, I don't mind. As long as all the old multitrack features are still available (and the price significantly drops, to say, $50-$300,) then I intend to buy it.
poppe
Jul 14, 12:25 PM
It was originally made by Philips, but the CD we know today is a Philips/Sony Co-Op.
And, regarding the BetaMax... It was actually quite succesfull. Yes, it failed in consumer-space, but it's still being used in television-productions.
Is it REALLY that bad? BetaMax wasn 't really a failure, since it's widely used even today. It's just not used by consumers. Sony was very important in creating the CD. They do have to misses that can't be denied: Memory Stick and MiniDisk.
Other companies might have less misses in these things, but we must acknowledge that none of them has been as active in coming up with alternatives. I haven't really seen Matsushita (for example) try to come up with new stuff. Sony has tried to come up with new stuff. Some of the succeeded, some of them failed.
On betamax. Your very right it is very succesful in a production studios for broadcasting and what not. But now even those are being replaced by DVC Pro (which I think is sony is it not?).
But I was more talking about the format war that keeps getting mentioned. It was one vs. the other in the consumer market. Who won? VHS. Thats all I meant.
And, regarding the BetaMax... It was actually quite succesfull. Yes, it failed in consumer-space, but it's still being used in television-productions.
Is it REALLY that bad? BetaMax wasn 't really a failure, since it's widely used even today. It's just not used by consumers. Sony was very important in creating the CD. They do have to misses that can't be denied: Memory Stick and MiniDisk.
Other companies might have less misses in these things, but we must acknowledge that none of them has been as active in coming up with alternatives. I haven't really seen Matsushita (for example) try to come up with new stuff. Sony has tried to come up with new stuff. Some of the succeeded, some of them failed.
On betamax. Your very right it is very succesful in a production studios for broadcasting and what not. But now even those are being replaced by DVC Pro (which I think is sony is it not?).
But I was more talking about the format war that keeps getting mentioned. It was one vs. the other in the consumer market. Who won? VHS. Thats all I meant.
SMM
Nov 15, 08:47 AM
How can this get negative votes? In fact, how do a lot of perfectly benign threads get negative votes? Are there just members out there who vote negative on everything?
macidiot
Jul 19, 04:33 PM
When the "real" machines are out, Vista will be out as well. Unless Leopard has revolutionary improvements, the difference between Windows and OSX+iLife would be much less than that it is today. I would still appreciate the UNIX under the hood, but I doubt most consumers care. If Mac sales or market share starts to come down a bit due to fewer switchers, the share price could easily crash.
Vista vs. Leopard is a moot point. There is enough pent up demand for high end desktops to fuel growth for some time. Switchers aren't material in this market. Besides, desktop buyers aren't waiting for Leopard, they are waiting for universal binaries from Adobe.
Vista will have zero near term effect. The simple truth is that you won't see widespread adoption of Vista for at least 12-18 months. And that is assuming Vista actually ships when it is supposed to. Which is no sure thing.
As for the consumer, what they care about is stability and security. imo, that is what is getting switchers. Your right that they don't care how it's being done. However, Vista will be far more secure than xp when it comes out. At least for a month or so. It will take at least a few weeks for good malware to come out for it...
Vista vs. Leopard is a moot point. There is enough pent up demand for high end desktops to fuel growth for some time. Switchers aren't material in this market. Besides, desktop buyers aren't waiting for Leopard, they are waiting for universal binaries from Adobe.
Vista will have zero near term effect. The simple truth is that you won't see widespread adoption of Vista for at least 12-18 months. And that is assuming Vista actually ships when it is supposed to. Which is no sure thing.
As for the consumer, what they care about is stability and security. imo, that is what is getting switchers. Your right that they don't care how it's being done. However, Vista will be far more secure than xp when it comes out. At least for a month or so. It will take at least a few weeks for good malware to come out for it...
gmcalpin
Jun 22, 05:25 PM
but a replacement of keyboard and mice don't think so...
I didn't say anything about replacing a keyboard and/or mouse. I'm talking about supplementing it. (You could probably replace the mouse with it, though. Lots of people are familiar with trackpads and love them. Why not?)
I already have a Wacom Cintiq in front of my keyboard. That's where most people would keep something like this.
I didn't say anything about replacing a keyboard and/or mouse. I'm talking about supplementing it. (You could probably replace the mouse with it, though. Lots of people are familiar with trackpads and love them. Why not?)
I already have a Wacom Cintiq in front of my keyboard. That's where most people would keep something like this.
BaldiMac
Sep 15, 08:51 AM
As far as the car comparisons go, I actually had an issue that is on point (as opposed to comparing a safety recall to a reception issue.)
I had a 2006 Acura TSX which got poor stereo reception because of an internal antenna. The official response was that it was "working as designed." They offered one year of satellite radio to anyone who complained about it.
Sounds a lot like Apple's response!
I had a 2006 Acura TSX which got poor stereo reception because of an internal antenna. The official response was that it was "working as designed." They offered one year of satellite radio to anyone who complained about it.
Sounds a lot like Apple's response!
zap2
Mar 21, 12:39 PM
This is being led by the UK and France... Obama has been dragging his feet.
http://www.france24.com/en/20110318-cameron-sarkozy-lead-no-fly-zone-effort-libya-benghazi
Doesn't seem to stop Obama from going on TV to claim credit though.
Did I miss something in that link? It just says UK and France were taking the lead, nothing about Obama "dragging his feet"...considering the number of forces the US has around the globe, I welcome this UN usage of force not being lead by the US.
http://www.france24.com/en/20110318-cameron-sarkozy-lead-no-fly-zone-effort-libya-benghazi
Doesn't seem to stop Obama from going on TV to claim credit though.
Did I miss something in that link? It just says UK and France were taking the lead, nothing about Obama "dragging his feet"...considering the number of forces the US has around the globe, I welcome this UN usage of force not being lead by the US.
BenRoethig
Nov 28, 07:59 AM
Congratulations, you just lost any arguments you wish to make. If Apple monitors are vastly overpriced for what you get, if you don't have any need for something that is superior to a regular consumer model, then why in the hell did you buy one?
Might have something to do with the fact that it matches the computer. However, the vast majority of Apple vs Dell display battles, even in the Mac community go to Dell. By the way, of the 23" displays tested last year, the one recommended by Macworld wasn't the Cinema Display, it only got 3.5 mice. The winner was actually an HP, which also by the way, was roughly the same price as the ACD at the time. It's 24" successor is about the same price as the dell. Same of their 20" Give all the "professional quality" justifications you want, the price of the components went down. Apple's making a ton off of giant margins because they know there are some who want that Apple logo so badly they'll pay twice as much to get it.
Might have something to do with the fact that it matches the computer. However, the vast majority of Apple vs Dell display battles, even in the Mac community go to Dell. By the way, of the 23" displays tested last year, the one recommended by Macworld wasn't the Cinema Display, it only got 3.5 mice. The winner was actually an HP, which also by the way, was roughly the same price as the ACD at the time. It's 24" successor is about the same price as the dell. Same of their 20" Give all the "professional quality" justifications you want, the price of the components went down. Apple's making a ton off of giant margins because they know there are some who want that Apple logo so badly they'll pay twice as much to get it.